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My Viral Debate With Mark Cuban Over Vaccinating Young, Healthy People Spurred By A Mention On Joe Rogan's Podcast
Read the full debate in serialized form below.
Two weeks ago, I was amazed to see Joe Rogan mention my name in his podcast with Patrick Bet-David. “I know about his exchanges with Rav Arora, the young journalist, and the different exchanges they’ve had back-and-forth,” Joe stated. He continued,
I don't think he knows what he's talking about. I don't think he knows what he's talking about about the side effects. I don't think he knows what he's talking about with the dangers of myocarditis; the idea that it's nothing and it goes away quickly. It's not true.
I don't think he's accurate and I don't think he's right, and I think he has a vested interest in his position. He's had that position for a long time -- the position of mandating vaccines for his players.
After I posted the clip (below) on Twitter, Mark quickly became quite triggered by the mention and responded with some air-headed, detractive questions — as well as some genuinely thought-provoking ones. I appreciate that he forced me to respond in public and answer his multi-layered, institutional questions that do seemingly undermine my views. However, ultimately I don’t think Mark knows what he’s talking about.
Our public debate is a revealing exercise in a wealthy establishment believer’s utter inability to let go of his religious convictions in the “mainstream, scientific view” — totally uncorrupted by political interests and perverse incentives — and see the unsavoury evidence in its blinding totality.
The full exchanges are on Twitter due to their great length, but I’ve serialized it in a letter exchange format for Illusion of Consensus readers to read through below. Let me know your thoughts!
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My Debate with Mark Cuban
Rav shares clip of Joe Rogan mention:
Mark Cuban responds:
Ok Joe Rogan and Rav Arora, let me ask you a question.
Which healthcare insurance company, anywhere in the world, has raised their rates for people who have been vaccinated? Which has raised their rates for parents of vaccinated, teen boys? Which sports organizations now charge more for vaccinated teen boys to participate to cover the "increased risk" of myocarditis from vaccination?
Respectfully Mark, you just don’t know what you’re talking about. Both Joe Rogan and I sensed this in our private exchange on the risks of myocarditis in young men post-vaccination.
You’re deflecting from the real issue and bringing up left-field arguments with little relevance to the heart of the matter. I don’t think insurance companies and sports organizations are great arbiters of truth on vaccine safety and cardiac damage. The reality is we mass-vaccinated untold numbers of young, healthy men (and women) with no clear demonstrated benefit and a relatively high risk of vaccine myocarditis. I’ll leave you with two pieces of damning data that cardiologist Dr. Anish Koka and I have analyzed. Let me know what fallacious defence you have to provide for this.
1) Rigorous Thai study (because U.S cannot do good studies) showing 2% of 13-18 year-olds had evidence of myocardial injury after second Pfizer shot. 1% developed clinical myocarditis (!!!). Unknown long-term implications.
2) New Hong Kong study on young ppl who had vaccine myocarditis shows over 50% still had scarring in their heart muscle ONE YEAR LATER.
Mark responds again:
Rav I’ll ask you and Joe Rogan and your friends a different question.
Given the authority you speak with, which organization, anywhere in the world, has excluded young, vaccinated men from participating? Which have made it mandatory that their teenage male members or prospective members not be vaccinated ?
Given the known prevalence and risk you describe, if true, wouldn't it be a significant liability to allow young vaccinated men to participate for fear and risk they would "died suddenly" or face vaccine induced myocarditis ? Not from a financial perspective, just a moral one. Given the risk you describe, there must be one, if not hundreds or thousands that have demanded that their participants not be vaccinated?
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Rav Arora pushes back:
Mark, these questions yet again deflect from the heart of the matter which is what the best data indicate on the risks of vaccine-induced myocarditis (we should have never pushed these shots on young, healthy people with prior infection). You're now asking an institutional, pragmatic question, not a data-based or medical one.
First, most people - young men included - have already gotten double-vaccinated. No organizations or sports teams now in 2023 are going to ban the vast majority of their vaccinated players. It makes no sense. Statistically, the vast majority of vaccinated young men - as far as we can tell now - do not have any impeding cardiac damage.
For clinical myocarditis, the risk is about ~1 in 2,000 depending on dose, vaccine, and age. Subclinical myocarditis - those with elevated cardiac biomarkers - remains a big, worrisome concern. The concern has never been that every vaccinated young man will drop dead, but rather an alarmingly high rate - but "small" on an absolute level - of men will suffer a range of cardiac side effects.
Secondly, your liability argument operates from a false premise. Why would some young mens' organization be liable if some vaccinated individual who voluntarily participates in an activity dies from a vaccine-caused heart attack? If it's dangerous contact sports, there are liability waivers that parents sign. Organizations wouldn't be liable for such tragic events. Lastly, it is an interesting question to ask why sports teams, universities, and various organizations didn't discourage their healthy male athletes not to get vaccinated in 2021 given the unfavourable risk-benefit profile. Many, rather, mandated and coerced their athletes to get the shots. This has to do with layers of misinformation and deep corruption at the two agencies we rely on for vaccine recommendations - CDC and FDA - who have shown their incompetence, manipulative tactics, and conflicted interests. They were not honest about the risks of vaccine adverse events and questioning such things was deemed heretical.
Remember, two senior FDA officials resigned due to the agencies zealous, unjustified push for boosters in young, healthy people. https://cnn.com/2021/08/31/health/fda-vaccine-officials-step-down/index.html… Excluding outliers like Dr. Ladapo in Florida, everyone else wrongly trusted the FDA and CDC for Covid vaccine recommendations. Sports organizations did too. FYI here's a paper by Dr. Vinay Prasad, and Dr. Tracy Beth Hoeg showing the complete disregard for truth, accuracy, and cost-benefit analysis at CDC: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4381627…
Mark asks more questions:
So in 2021, rather than youth related organizations trying to protect their male teens, only you and your associated doctors could see through the corruption, while organizations around the world could not and did nothing?
And in 2022, commercial organizations, like global insurers, who must have seen the impact on male teens that you did (they would see the cost reports for the care they paid for) , decided that it was best to pay for vaccinations of male teens so they were free to them, rather than being ethical and stopping them from getting vaccinated?
Just my personal opinion, but when someone says that EVERYONE fell for misinformation from the government except them (you) and their associates, I tend to be sceptical.
Make sense ?
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Rav attempts to set Mark straight once and for all:
Mark, you clearly have not been following this issue. Again, our system is broken. Youth-related and athletic organizations defaulted to the balderdash from the CDC and FDA. It's understandable in that they appear to be highly credible science-based institutions with "experts" far more experienced in epidemiology and cardiology than you and I combined. Except, those experts got umpteen things wrong. Mask mandates, lockdowns, school closures, vaccine mandates - all such policies were seriously miscalculated. Individuals within those organizations have admitted to the fatal flaws of their supposedly noble work. Example: anonymous senior FDA official said, “The public has no idea how bad this [vaccine] data really is. It would not pass muster for any other authorization." In’s The Free Press:
You are incorrect that institutions around the world did "nothing" with the vaccine injury problem just like the U.S failed. Countries such as Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Iceland all took some measure in advising males to not get dose 2 or the Moderna vaccine (higher rates of myocarditis) in response to the elevated risk of cardiac complications. Here's some more examples:
The German health minister @Karl_Lauterbach admitting the Covid vaccines have produced an egregiously high rate of adverse events (every other vaccine 1 or 2 per million adverse events): "Every [vaccine adverse event] is one too many…they have severe disablement, some of which will be permanent...These vaccines have been used worldwide, 1 in 10,000 [are injured], so you can say it’s a lot, or you can say it’s not so many.” Back home, here's Florida - run by the great Harvard-trained conspiracy theorist Dr. Ladapo @FLSurgeonGen - advising against the usage of Covid shots in young men: "[T]the State Surgeon General recommends against males aged 18 to 39 from receiving mRNA COVID-19 vaccines." https://floridahealth.gov/newsroom/2022/10/20220512-guidance-mrna-covid19-vaccine.pr.html…
Denmark last year barred essentially everyone under 50 from getting more vaccine shots except those with “higher risk of becoming severely [emphasis added] from Covid-19.”
All of this is contrast to the corrupt American CDC and FDA which insist every American down to 6 months old receive a 5th/6th booster vaccine and potentially a yearly shot. Without any good evidence.
Lastly, here's a short list of me and my "associated doctors" who agree with me on the pharmaceutical zealotry, regulatory failure, and political corruption driving the reckless push for continued Covid vaccinations in young, healthy people over the past three years. Do these names all seem like disqualified frauds? See for yourself:
Dr. Martin Kuldorff, Dr. Marty Makary, Dr. Tracy Beth Hoeg, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, Dr. Aseem Malhotra, Dr. Mike Hart, Dr. Suneel Dhand
(I could go on but I’ll stop here)
Mark fails to respond, but Rav emails him and gets a ridiculously dishonest response which he summarizes on Twitter:
Great example of intellectual honesty and sincerity by Mark Cuban.
I privately reached out to Mark Cuban to continue our heated, long-form Twitter battle in a friendly podcast conversation on any forum of his choice and he responded with "You only talk to conservatives" and "everyone you talk to has the same view on Covid."
More asininely, because I argue the Covid pandemic revealed great corruption in the government and Big Pharma, Mark believes that makes me inherently unreliable and dishonest. I’m frequently amazed at how deceitful and unprincipled some people are who pose as serious interlocutors on pressing, real-world issues.
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