30 Comments
May 2·edited May 3Liked by Debbie Lerman

Very interesting and matches my understanding. I had extensive conversations with Jeffrey Engel, former head the Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists (CSTE) which is the group assigned development of "case definition" recommendations to the CDC after a new infectious disease is identified. He was former head of CSTE and was brought back to run the Covid case definition development process. We had a couple of phone calls and numerous email exchanges before he cut me off for questioning him too hard. Two key points: 1) he volunteered that yes NSC was strangely prominent in meetings he was involved with even from early 2020 and that struck him as important enough to mention; 2) he literally said "so what" when I questioned him about the highly anomalous Covid case defiition that defines a Covid case as only a positive test result and NOT requiring any symptoms. Almost all previous respiratory illness case definitions had required BOTH positive test result and symptoms and the Covid case definition made a HUGE difference in perceived prevalence of the disease since widespread testing without symptoms yields massive rates of false positives (90% plus). I suspect these two points are related and suggests one of two conclusions: 1) NSC got involved b/c of fears of China hitting US with biowarfare and everything else flowed from that fear as an "erring on the side of caution" approach that massively backfired by creating a system of policies that conjured a pandemic out of a not particularly harmful new illness; 2) or NSC was involved b/c it saw Covid as a good potential trial run for a "real pandemic" and then everything else flowed from that.... Email me at tam dot hunt at gmail if you want to discuss further.

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May 2Liked by Debbie Lerman

Very interesting. And to follow on with a third possibility 3) a way to test the control ability of the citizens of the supposedly, “greatest democracy in the world” by using CCP strategies against the people and by extension through the WHO and other NGO’s and National Defense Agencies worldwide. If you want to know the reasons behind fa certain action, look at the outcome. What was the outcome? The greatest transfer of wealth from the middle classes and the poor to the extraordinarily wealthy since the Great Depression of the 1930’s.

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May 2Liked by Debbie Lerman

Or was that just a consequence of the foolishness of the response? I understand that they do game out their strategies and responses but clearly they didn’t game out the enormous and very damaging and costly social consequences for the peoples of the democracy. I think this also highlights that a democracy is not a democracy if an arm of the state can take over the decisions about the public health of its citizens. Thank you for ensuring you got that point across Ms Lerman.

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May 2Liked by Debbie Lerman

I am open to that possibility too, though it could be the case that the "powers that be" were incidental beneficiaries of draconian policies otherwise. I wrote this piece a while back on the unholy marriage between capitalism and scientism and it surely is the case that Big Pharma and BMFG etc. have been pushing for pro-vaccine policiies for many years now at least in part b/c of massive potential profits: https://tamhunt.medium.com/capitalism-meet-scientism-a-too-convenient-marriage-a61191e357d9

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author

Thanks for the link - will check out your article.

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great, I look forward to discussing further with you. tamhunt at gmail.com.

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I can certainly agree with that thesis Tam and thank you for the link to your Medium piece. I look forward to reading it.

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author

Fascinating - thank you so much for the info! I will followup by email.

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Great, I look forward to it.

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Amazing investigative reporting.

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May 2Liked by Debbie Lerman

This interview really has to be seen and I would very much like to see Ms Lerman interviewed by an investigative journalist, next, rather than in conversation, though I truly am grateful that she has now been introduced to the world outside of her close allies. We need to hear everything she has to say because the past is prologue and we can’t afford not to have her full picture in order to prevent this from happening again.

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Thank you so much for your kind words. You can read more of my investigative work on my Substack: debbielerman.substack.com and also at the Brownstone Institute:

https://brownstone.org/author/debbie-lerman/

I'm very grateful to Jay and Rav for having me as a guest on their fantastic podcast and for giving me this opportunity to get the information out to a broader audience!

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May 2Liked by Debbie Lerman

I sensed Debbie had a whole lot more to say. I’m interested in hearing it.

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I watched it and really enjoyed it. Both you and Debbie touched on my area of interest, the likelihood the virus horse had escaped the proverbial barn and no doubt galloped around the world, probably in September 2019, but at least by early October.

At the end of the discussion, Debbie points out that “lockdowns and vaccines” were probably Goal/Objective No. 1 early on. I also appreciate Debbie making the point that “early spread with no early deaths” would have harpooned those obvious objectives.

IMO what’s missing from the interviews and analysis I’ve seen from Jay is much of any discussion of what we would have seen if a contagious virus was circulating. Namely, we would have seen a noticeable spike in people experiencing Covid symptoms (which are respiratory virus symptoms, which are really ILI symptoms).

Note: Jay and Debbie do talk about how many people would have been real cases if, say, the R-ought number really was 3. (Even if the R-ought number was 2 and virus spread started in America in early November, we would have had millions of cases by the lockdowns).

IMO, there needs to be more discussion of any possible evidence that would show that … more people were becoming sick with … ILI symptoms.

Did such evidence actually exist in many places in the world? Based on my research, the answer is clearly, “Yes, such evidence exists.”

This evidence is found in the CDC and state health agency’s own weekly ILI Surveillance Reports. The same evidence exists in hundreds of contemporaneous media reports of “flu outbreaks” that began in America in November 2019. ILI was “widespread” and “severe” in several states, including five contiguous states in the Deep South (from Texas east to Georgia … and also in Washington state.) Note: ILI was elevated in November in Atlanta Georgia - home of the CDC.

One might also expect to see evidence of “community spread,” which we might note by tallying up all the schools and entire school systems that closed between November 2019 and February 2020 due to rampant or excess “flu-like illness.”

This evidence also exists. More schools closed than, perhaps, ever before in the history of school closings.

I’d also look at anecdotal evidence of people who think they might have had Covid, citizens who report (often in Internet message boards or Comment Sections) that they were definitely sick in these pre-Covid months. Significantly (to me), many of these people report that their symptoms were somehow different than previous bouts with the flu or winter “bugs.”

This “testimonial evidence” is copious or easy-to-find as well.

We can’t look at “PCR tests given” - because virtually no American could get a PCR test before March 12, 2020 ... We can’t really look at "antibody tests given" because those didn’t become common-place until the last few days of April/early May 2020. (Still, there were plenty of antibody studies and results that seem to confirm cases of “sick people” dating to November and December 2019.)

It’s always been bizarre to me that “Covid symptoms” don’t seem to be discussed when discussing the possibility of “early spread” outside of China.

Some officials in our health system and at the CDC, NIH and state health agency must have known there was a spike in sick people with Covid symptoms months and weeks before Covid was supposed to be in America. Surely, some of these experts had the thought that “some of these sick people might have had Covid.”

But, as far as I can tell, this thought exercise or possibility never came up anywhere, including the White House Covid Response Team. If nothing else, the fact this possibility never was considered should qualify as epidemiological malpractice, malfeasance or incompetence.

Links/Evidence of Large Numbers of Sick People:

Flu Season of 2019-2020 was one of worst in decades:

https://billricejr.substack.com/p/flu-season-of-2019-2020-was-one-of?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2

Record number of school closings:

https://billricejr.substack.com/p/school-closings-galore-documented?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2

Do The anecdotes or testimonials of millions of sick people matter?

https://billricejr.substack.com/p/no-ones-published-an-article-like?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2

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Thanks Bill - your work on early spread is such an important piece of the puzzle that many more people should know about!

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Debbie, I have shared this information here on this Stack, as well on Bill's investigating the origins of the COVID-19 virus were able to step outside of the binary mind box of lab leak vs natural origin theories they might find this information of interest.

This information from pharmaceutical and health policymaker's official industry publications may point us to the possibility that the 2019-2020 flu vaccine itself helped generate the perception that Covid was an exceptionally dangerous and infectious pathogen. The 2019-2020 flu jabs themselves may very well be responsible for the severe outcomes that were being experienced, either via direct injection or shedding from vaccines - that we know happens with the LAIV model that was standardized for use in the 2019-2020 version.

An investigator leaving no stone unturned isn't limited to two possibilities. A skilled investigator on a relentless search for truth, no matter where it leads, would start digging around into what was actually in those 2019 flu jabs that could have precipitated the entire pandemic. Yes, we know that vaccines themselves shed. Fauci and the CDC eventually admitted that even about the mRNA COVID design. But especially the live-attenuated types that were used in the 2019-2020 flu season design. So one didn't need to receive the flu shot that year to have gotten very sick from it.

And the 2019 flu jab used a known severe H3N2 variant that was hotly debated about its inclusion in the quadrivalent because it was known to be very severe. Here's some interesting information that may help connect some dots when paired with the study found in the Substack link towards the end this comment. And don't miss the November, 2019 CNN Fauci section I include that is also very, very curious to consider with 20/20 hindsight. Given all that has transpired since it takes on a very predictive appearance, similar to "priming" in psychological parlance:

- This publication describes a brand-new style of flu vaccine that came online for the 2019-2020 flu season. Mammalian cell-based instead of egg-based. Claims that it was studied for efficacy...but no mention of safety trials:

https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/news/first-cell-based-quadrivalent-vaccine-available-for-2019-2020-flu-season

"A new cell-based seasonal influenza vaccine has been issued marketing approval by the European Commission and will be available for the 2019/2020 flu season.

Flucelvax® Tetra (Seqirus) is the first cell-based quadrivalent influenza vaccine (QIVc) to be made available in Europe and is licensed for use in individuals aged nine years and older.

To date, there have been no randomised controlled trials comparing the efficacy of QIVc and standard egg-based quadrivalent vaccines (QIVe)"

“This real-world study, along with other emerging evidence, indicates that cell-based influenza vaccines may result in better influenza-related outcomes compared to standard egg-based vaccine options in some seasons"

"In the UK, the potential advantages of QIVc, which is cultured in mammalian cells rather than eggs"

“We are pleased to be bringing Flucelvax Tetra to the UK next season and have sufficient capacity at our cell-based manufacturing facility in the US to also ensure supply in September 2019"

- This article is interesting. It says that they added live-attenuated influenza vaccines to the schedule. It goes on to say that flu vaccines most definitely, positively, absolutely don't cause the flu, and by that definition won't shed...even after all of the science on vaccines admit that live-attenuated vaccines do shed. Curious:

https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/20192020-influenza-vaccine-update

"The 2019–2020 influenza vaccine recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) have remained mostly the same, with the exception of adding the LAIV to the immunization schedule."

- These articles tell us about what the WHO's process is and what they decided the 2019-2020 vaccine recommendations would be. I'll note that the first link speaks to concerns with preparing for H3N2 from the prior year, while the second link says they ended up not developing that specific strain of vaccines, after all, and the third link says they went ahead and included the H3N2 variant, after all. H3N2 was a "very severe" variant:

https://elemental.medium.com/inside-the-making-of-the-flu-vaccine-c5d6f8cd174c

https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/who-vaccine-recommendations-are-used-pharmaceutical-companies-develop-produce-and-license-influenza

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/918053

***********************************************************************************************************

- Now, this is an interesting story from CNN that came out in November, 2019, an important time frame in the evolution of the covid story. Especially if the early spread theory links illness to October, 2019. Note the discussion about the need to develop a new type of all-purpose vaccine, a desire to test it widely, one that focused on a protein they link to a particular virus...like, say, a spike protein. Fauci is frequently quoted in it:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/29/health/universal-flu-vaccine/index.html

"But a universal flu shot would theoretically cover every strain of the flu using what’s known as an ice cream cone approach."

"Last spring, doctors at the NIH started testing universal flu shots on Sonn and other study participants to see how their bodies respond.

The research got an extra push in September when President Donald Trump signed an executive order aimed at developing a better flu vaccine.

Fauci said it could take less time – but still many years – to develop a semi-universal flu shot, which would protect against not all flu viruses, but rather a group of flu viruses."

"The faster and more precise method is not to grow the virus at all and instead just create the virus’ protein, he said.

“We clone the gene that codes for the specific protein we want,” Fauci said. “I don’t even want to see the virus. I just need the sequence of that virus, the genetic map of that virus. And you could send that to me by email.”

That’s the technology that’s being used to create the vaccines being trialed on participants like Sonn right now.

“We feel like we’re pioneers, and our volunteers are pioneers,” Ledgerwood said."

And there is a strong correlation between the 2019-2020 flu vaccine and COVID-19 susceptibility:

https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/how-flu-vaccines-accidentally-reveal

How does the 2019 flu vaccine look like now? And how does that CNN piece from November, 2019 read in hindsight now? To "Science" is about exploring different theories and hypothesis to explain an unknown. If we limit our exploration to a narrow parameter of *believed* theories that have been most widely speculated on then we may be missing the real explanation, following pre-planned competing dead-ends. I'm surprised at a lack of interest in digging into this curious compilation of official vaccine industry publications to investigate and see what kind of "there" is there.

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And if this was the PsyOps, and I know Jay is reticent go down that path, but if it was, then it was very successful riding in on the "Contagion" Hollywood model of a deadly viral outbreak, lab escape, bioweapon concept.

Respiratory viruses don't work like that in the real world. Humans actually are hard to kill without poisons. We have the most successful immune system God designed for survival on this biologically active planet. And as long as we take care of it through lifestyle and diet its protection is unsurpassed. Far superior to any protection arrogant man imagines themselves capable of designing or enhancing.

It takes an invasive procedure of man's own doing to overpower our immune system. Spreading deadly contagion via airborne respiratory shedding is incredibly inefficient. Not sufficient to create a global pandemic without an injection assist, bypassing most of nature's safeguards.

Yet a theory that involves riding piggyback on existing systems of introducing dangerous substances into bodies is ignored while ridiculous Hollywood-inspired theories consume the work of investigators. The psychological priming of movies and media amplifying and fighting over only two "Contagion" theories provides the perfect getaway car for the perpetrators.

Nobody is even looking for them or bothered getting the plate number as their car fled the scene. Quickly becoming a cold case.

Investigators really trying to crack the case would take a fresh look at the evidence for the clues left behind nobody thought important enough to follow up on. Either intentionally or lacking imagination.

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It is now being posited that KP 2 could actually be Viral Sepsis. This needs serious discussion and quickly. To understand this proposition and review the science, go to VeJon Health, Dr Philip McMillan, yesterday . So many people are ill now with pneumonia, bronchitis, GI issues as symptoms, there is evidently a serious problem cascading through communities everywhere. Many are being hospitalised because they are so ill.

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Thanks so much for a great piece. I loved the interplay between you both and your shared good humour. What is between the lines is the link to the puppet masters who've masterminded the plandemic for the past few decades. The use of censorship and propaganda employed by the Nazis last century has been utilised on a global scale this time, but the game is up. They've shot themselves in the foot.

What we all have seen fully exposed for the past four years is the revelation of the genocidal intentions of the globalists who seek to kill and/or seriously physically disable humanity - who they identify as "useless eaters". Until recent times they have managed to remain in the dark and manipulate us from behind the scenes.

The leader of the WEF (if he still exists in that capacity) has openly boasted about having infiltrated democracies around the world. We think we have elected government representatives to serve us, but our parliamentarians and senators, by and large, deliver the agenda designed by their puppet masters - the globalists.

They are now fully exposed to the light and no longer have anywhere to hide.

Glad I'm on the side of light!

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I share your concerns and am now doing a deep dive into the One Health globalist agenda. Stay tuned!

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May 3Liked by Debbie Lerman

Jay. Debbie is correct about Birx. Please read the Real Anthony Fauci. RFKJr has not been sued for the contents of that book because it is all documented. If Fauci et al sued it would simply bring to light the horrors of what they have done especially in Africa. Please do not defend these criminals.

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May 2Liked by Debbie Lerman

That’s his name, Pottinger! I watched an interview several months ago where they talked about him working for Birx, his connection to China and his absurd policy positions (that she pushed and went along with). I hope to find it again. That is, after I watch this one. 😊

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Please share the link to that if you have it - many thanks!

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May 3Liked by Debbie Lerman

Thank you Ms. Lerman for your tireless work and sharp interpretation of the documents you uncovered.

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Outstanding. This is a bright light on what has befallen us. I've been reading Lerman's articles over at Brownstone for a while now, but I hadn't had a chance to see her speak in person. Very, very impressive. Thank you.

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I always suspected that widespread incompetence and bureaucratic meddling was a large aspect of why things went wrong. Kinda seems like it is more and more true as things get more clear.

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And possibly even more sinister meddlings, like the biowarfare-industrial-complex taking charge of the pandemic response!

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This is a fantastic piece of work, thank you Ms Debbie Lehman. You have done us all a tremendous service and I know, I and very many more people really do need to hear a hell of a lot more about what you found out, from you and the sooner the better. Facts are what you brought to the table whereas your host, bless him, brought opinions and surmises and that’s ok, as far as it goes but and this is a big but, we need facts in order to understand what is likely to be the response of all those world wide agencies you cited, because very shortly we may be faced with an even worse situation that is not a bio weapon but a man made disaster. The reason is, if you were to take a look at what virologist, Dr.Geert Vanden Bossche warned about “vaccinating” during a pandemic, and consequently the thwarting of the natural progress of a virus, and how it would react, because we’re dealing with the power of nature and her natural viral processes, we would understand as Dr. Vanden Bossche has, that until herd immunity is achieved, this virus will not be defeated. So where are we now? “On a highway to hell”., to quote a famous rock and roll song. It is Dr Vanden Bossche’s thesis, worked out from the very start and charted by him as the virus progressed and mutated and transformed itself from Delta to Omicron through JN.1 and all its lineages right up to this date where it seems almost defeated, but, and again, a very big but, in order to be defeated, it will need to pull off one last great explosive transformation to achieve herd immunity, that, because of what we have done, will take vast numbers of the vaccinated with it, why? Because the immune systems of the vaccinated are now blind to a next major transformation, their natural immune system has been silenced and will not be able to mount an appropriate response to kill of the virus because it only recognises the original version. Only the immune systems of the unvaccinated will. Be able to mount such a response. The vaccinated may have some chance of survival if they have a prophylactic already in their system but no one is telling them this, except a few good scientists and doctors who saved people during the Covid pandemic by treating them with medications that were outlawed by the agencies that should have been promoting them because of their safety profile over very many years. So Ms Lehman, If you were to envisage this scenario, I think you will agree, that based on what you discovered and have shared here, we can deduce that the response will be the same and would, in that event, risk us all. Whereas, if a public health approach was mobilised, it would already be active and the people in all the heavily vaccinated countries would already be on prophylactics. If there is a possibility of this new Varient, exploding on the world, we should now be hedging our bets but no public health authority is doing so. So the mistakes that were made, will be compounded and that will cause an absolute disaster. Let us remember, armed forces, police forces, doctors, nurses, physicians of all sorts were mandated to take the jab so they also are in trouble with the rest of the populations. If this is where the progress of the virus is leading the world, you will understand that should a Varient arrive, and Dr.Vanden Bossche fears it will, before the end of the summer, given how this last pandemic has been handled and since none of the changes Ms Lehman has suggested have been made, we will, once again have a National security, Bio Weapon response that will kill rather than save. I remember as a youngster wondering how gigantic, enormous dinosaurs could possible have become extinct? As it turns out, through natural processes after an extraordinary event. Are we facing ours?

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Today, Dr Philip McMillan of VeJon Health (YouTube and here) has posited a thesis that this new KP2 strain that is already present in the USA and the UK may be bringing a form of “Viral Sepsis” as a change from the form that the original C19 took and may be the cause of so many hospital beds being taken up with Pneumonia that turns into sepsis but I will let the good doctor explain the science to you himself. This would be in line with Dr Geert Vanden Bossche’s prognostication : https://www.youtube.com/live/GmJTDN61JCc?si=EU6M3_MuVROGBn9j

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Thank you for an enlightening conversation.

This arrogant, opaque government treats free citizens in this Constitutional Republic like "special needs subjects".

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